Spiritual guide to the rich and famous, aide to Martin Luther King Jr., committed social activist, winner of 13 presidential primaries and caucuses—for 40 years Jesse Jackson has been a compelling voice on the issues of our time

Jesse Jackson has suffered many pitfalls, including a derailed presidential run, but at 67 remains a riveting orator and influential advocate for change. Before appearing as the guest speaker at the Nova Scotia Co-operative Council's 60th-anniversary dinner in June, Rev. Jackson sat down with Progress to talk about the current economic crisis, links between capitalism and spirituality, and how to be truly happy.

Progress: How much of your economic thinking is inspired by your spirituality?
Jesse Jackson: I often speak about tithing. That is not a salvation term. That's people living in rural areas and forming co-ops. Collective economics. And it works because you've tithed. When one person owns all the farms, and one person sets the prices and runs small farmers out of business, and you've got the government subsidizing non-farmers to own farm land for tax write-offs, that's corrupt.

Progress: The traditional idea of business was that the whole contest was about money. Whoever got the most money won. And now you see people saying maybe that shouldn't be the whole of the game. What do you say to entrepreneurs and businesspeople? What should they be trying to achieve?
Jackson: What I like about the co-op movement is that the co-op democratizes capital. It has checks and balances. Co-operation in health care, housing, education, employment-and there's room for innovation and private ambition. What protects democracy from the most able and the most greedy is checks and balances and the separation of powers. What happened in this economic crisis is that the oversight checks and balances got lost. The whole world is tilted because somehow we allowed the horse to lead the wagon, driven by greed.

Progress: What do you say to those who believe the Reagan doctrine that greed is good?
Jackson: Now we see it to its logical conclusion. The banks got what they wanted and want what they got. Deregulation; uninhibited, maximized profit; globalized capital; crush the little guy-they got all that. A global recession/depression is its logical conclusion.

Progress: But when you meet people and they say, "I'm going into business because I want to be wealthy, and I'm not going to bother making it sustainable. The whole object is to get money and that's what I want," what do you say?
Jackson: Going into business to serve, you will also make money. If you make money and don't serve, then you don't have a foundation. You ought to want to be a farmer to feed people and then get paid for feeding them, not to fleece them but to feed them. Even our desire for wealth must be chastened by some values. You want to be a politician because you want to serve, not to lord over somebody. You want to have the right reasons for wanting to be a minister or a businessperson or a doctor or a lawyer. You want to do it for the right reasons.

Progress: Our prime minister, Stephen Harper, once accused this part of the country of having a culture of defeat. Whenever outsiders say something like that, we feel like any community that has someone from outside say, "You people are lazy, you're never going to amount to anything." What would you suggest to business and political leaders here in Eastern Canada on how they can help turn around this stereotype and address the roots of the problem?
Jackson: Chances are the issue is not effort and will but industrial opportunity. Those who can work at the dockyard work. Those who make Michelin tires, they work hard. So the leaders' role is ultimately to have incentives to get more industry for people who want to work productively. I'm all about motivation. It's important. But you can be a serious cook in the kitchen and want to make biscuits, yet without the baking powder it won't rise. You need some baking powder.

Progress: Canada is very affected by American culture and thinking, yet we also have a foot in Britain and Europe. When it comes to co-operatives and credit unions we are much more like the European model; the U.S. is less progressive in this. Do you think the economic crisis is deep enough that U.S. culture will shift?
Jackson: I want to think so but I'm not sure. For example, rather than have reconstructive banks, we're restructuring the old bank without new values.

Progress: What do you say to people who think government is bad, that it should all be left to the market?
Jackson: It's all about character. Character is measured by what we achieve, what we share. Jesus said courage is measured not by what Nicodemus had but by how you treat the least of these. It's like a moral governor. You can have enough, have some surplus. But I've never seen a U-Haul attached to a hearse.

Progress: Sometimes life can get so complex and complicated that we forget the bottom line. What do you think is the secret to people being happy?
Jackson: You write a book, people read it. You talk, people listen to you. You should be known by the fruit you bear. Private wealth without an inner sense of community is fruitless. That's why collective economics makes sense to me. It democratizes capital. It keeps people invigorated. Now too few people own too much. Too many own nothing. That's not healthy.

Progress: I read recently in The Guardian Weekly a study showing that in societies with less distance between the poorest and the wealthiest, everyone is happier.
Jackson: At one point you're making more money because you're insecure. You're not making money because you feel some need. I often ask, when is enough enough? When are enough clothes enough? What is the function of clothes? Why buy a $40,000 car? For what? You still have to stop at red traffic lights. You still have to stay in your lane.

Progress: When people tell you they are wealthy but not happy, what do you suggest?
Jackson: Take off your rich robe and feel the pulse of the people. The heart speaks to the heart.

Progress: Are you happy? What do you think of yourself?
Jackson: I'm fulfilled on the one hand. Some days there are unforeseen curves. There are potholes in the road you didn't see. Sometimes your axle cracks. But you've got to get up again because nothing is too hard for God, and the ground is no place for a champion. At the end of the day, you're judged by your box score. It's not the home run you hit, the strikeout in another inning, and the catch you made. God has to judge us by our batting average. If we judged it day by day, we wouldn't make it till tomorrow.